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October 22, 2007

Comments

Solh Zendeh

All the issues being discussed and that surround this issue come down to a single fundamental thing: population vs resources.

When population grows, and the resources do not grow, or grow more slowly than does the population, all of the issues we are discussing occur *inevitably, no matter what you do*.

The most fundamental resource is energy - in the case of the current world infrastructure that comes in the form of oil.

Being a nation of immigrants worked because no matter how fast our population grew, we discovered more and more resources (oil) - especially in the first half of the 20th century. That ended in the 70s (our oil production peaked, and OPEC swung online to take advantage of that fact) - we've been coasting on technology and financial humbug for 30 years now, but global oil supply just peaked.

The ride is over people, peak oil is going to rock your world in the next ten years and immigration is going to make this period much much (much!) worse. Importing poor unskilled workers into our economy can only be kinda-sorta justified if our energy supply can keep up. It cannot, and we have to stop bringing them in.

This is not a racial or ethnic issue for me. Personally I feel very disgusted by those stupid comments, however it's time to grow up. Our ability to maintain something even approaching our current level of health, food, water and live style depends on understanding how we got what we have today. It took unimaginable amounts of virtually free energy that was ever-increasing to do it - and that supply *has peaked*.

PS if you really truly wanted to help these people, you would advocate for a less ridiculous farm bill and energy bill. We're subsidizing the industries (with our taxes) that are driving them here out of desperation. Let's help make their countries a place where they can make a living, instead of bringing them here to create a bigger and bigger underclass.

Imux

Moonbats and moonbat supporters, please tell me where any of my comments have been xenophobic or racist. Did I ever say I only wanted people from south and central america deported and thrown out?? No, you dummies. I've said all along I don't care if they come from Brazil or Ireland. If you're here illegally then get out. If you're unwilling to leave on your own then we should have the cops toss you out. SIMPLE SOLUTION.

My solution needs no handwringing and long useless meetings/discussions. If you are breaking the law by coming and staying here ILLEGALLY (no matter what shade you happen to come in) then get out or we'll throw you out. These people by coming here illegally have shown they have no respect for the rule of law. They need to be gone.

Solh, I somewhat agree with your post, but there is a lot of oil that we aren't allowed to get to 'cause we may offend some tailed amphibian. Let's pump the goddamn oil whereever we find it to increase the supply (and keep prices somewhat stable) while we invest in alternative energy sources.

Hey moonbats/liberals/PDS'ers, how come you're not celebrating that the surge in Iraq has worked and US/Iraqi casualties are down dramatically?!?! I sure am. Oh yeah... that's right... you're a pack of treasonous, seditious, Godless traitors. With you it's all party over country.

Objective

Imux, you ignorant jackass, inform yourself before speaking, instead of parroting FOX news propaganda:

Grim math shows increase not drop in violence in Iraq

Imux

Objective, how about using a real news source there Benedict Arnold.
Read and stop being a traitor.

Quoted from the MSNBC story:
Maj. Gen. Rick Lynch points to what the military calls “Concerned Citizens” — both Shiites and Sunnis who have joined the American fight. He says he’s signed up 20,000 of them in the past four months.

“I’ve never been more optimistic than I am right now with the progress we’ve made in Iraq. The only people who are going to win this counterinsurgency project are the people of Iraq. We’ve said that all along. And now they’re coming forward in masses,” Lynch said in a recent interview at a U.S. base deep in hostile territory south of Baghdad.

And don't bother responding with some crap from moveon.org or a similar "Tokyo Rose" rag. K?

Norski

Solh - Believe it or not, energy is not the biggest of our concerns. Currently in the world only 11.3% of the land is Arable and used as cropland. The balance of world lands are either used to grow timber, too rugged to farm, too frozen to farm, too salty to farm, too far from water to farm, lacks topsoil, has too much rain, or is locked up as parks and forest preserves. And of course there is the land that sits under cities that can no longer be farmed. And there is little extra food grown in the World. If there is extra food it exists because of the difficulty of shipping it to where there is starvation. And that spare food will probably disappear as we convert cornfields to ethanol production to fuel our cars.

For every 1,000 people you need one square mile of farmland. If you take Boston as an example 590,763 people live in 48.4 square miles, but you need an additional 591 square miles of land in order to feed the people who live there. So Boston really takes up 639 square miles. So you can see the relationship between farm and city.

Boston has a population density is rated at 12,327 people per square mile. Based on the statistics for Boston and taking the Pew Center figure of 12,000,000 Illegal Immigrants this represents additional urban sprawl from Illegal Immigration covering a land area of about 973 square miles. And it represents a re-tasking of 12,000 square miles of farmland from exports sent to where these people used to live to internal U.S. consumption where the Illegal Immigrants live now. People might say “so what” about us no longer exporting food from 12,000 square miles of land, but there are a lot of really knowledgeable Economists who are worried about the U.S. Balance of Trade as we export less and less food.

But the real problem hidden from sight is the urban sprawl. Here in the U.S. we let the vast majority of our cities sprawl all over our best farmland. So what happens when you pave over and build over 973 square miles of farmland? Approximately 973,000 people loose their food supply. Still does not seem like much? Few U.S. Cities have population densities like Boston. Los Angeles has a population density of 8,205 people per square mile, Minneapolis has 6,791 people per square mile, St. Louis has 5,696 people per square mile, San Diego has 3,872 people per square mile, Houston has 3,701 people per square mile, Des Moines has 2,621 people per square mile, and Indianapolis has 2,152 people per square mile. That gives a good range of how many people have lost their food supply, with a low of 973,000 people (Boston) and a high of 5,600,000 people (Indianapolis) thanks to Illegal Immigrant driven U.S. urban sprawl. To put this in perspective Connecticut has a total land area (excluding lakes) of 4,844 square miles. At a population density of 2,500 people per square mile 12 million Illegal Immigrants will have converted an area the size of Connecticut from green space to city forever.

And yes, that pesky one square mile feeds 1,000 people productivity rate also provides another problem. The only way to feed those people who just lost their food supply to urban sprawl is to increase productivity on the remaining land by using chemical fertilizers, insecticides, more expensive irrigation techniques, and genetic manipulation. Or we have to convert more of our parks, grasslands, and forests into farms.
And this says nothing about our water supply limitations or how population growth is straining them.

Solh Zendeh

Imux, it's true there is some more oil scattered around that is "off limits", but the truth is that additional supply would, at best, just keep us stumbling along for another couple of years. The North slope has enough total oil to supply America for, oh, 4 months or so - big wooop.

However, I would be willing to let people drill in those locations with the following condition: the oil market must not be subsidized - oil must be priced at what it actually costs to get.

Currently we subsidize the price of oil by spending (tr?)billions of our tax dollars on direct breaks and on the navy - which protects the supply lines and insures a stable, low(ish) cost of oil. That is fine, but for a free market to work properly, I'm sure you agree that externalizing costs this way is not correct.

I propose we roughly calculate the amount of taxes we spend protecting these supply lines and tack that onto every barrel of oil we import. The "tax" on those barrels could then be divided evenly back to all tax payers at the end of each year. That last bit is important, we simply want the price of the thing to match what it costs to produce, not open a new revenue stream for the govt.

Nothing like the free market to inspire innovation. That is something that would do more to stop the terrorists, and all those dictators in OPEC, than anything we could do militarily.

As far as your last comments. I really think anyone who advocates tossing the bill of rights should rethink accusing others of treason or sedition. It seems to me that tossing those rights is the height of treason. Come down hard on employers that employ them - jobs will dry up and they will leave. Fixing the farm bill so they can actually make a living at home growing crops instead of being under priced by our artificially cheap corn would be a good second step.

Solh Zendeh

Norski, food is the most important part of the energy equation, it's true. I'll need to re-read your post to understand what you are saying exactly, but basically, our ability to grow the amount of food we do is based on oil and natural gas inputs in the form of the things you mentioned in your last paragraph. Thus I personally believe that the food supply issue is just a part of the larger energy problem we are facing.

Imux

Norski, I couldn't have said it better myself: "And this says nothing about our water supply limitations or how population growth is straining them...". Beyond a rule of law issue the illegals coming here is a matter of math (supply & demand). It doesn't add up.

Solh, I totally agree on limiting subsidies to big oil. I believe we should only be taxed for Police/Fire/Military - the rest should be privatized (includes sanitation and all the silly little councils / pork barrel crap that we pay for).

"... I really think anyone who advocates tossing the bill of rights should rethink accusing others of treason or sedition. It seems to me that tossing those rights is the height of treason.... We're at war and we have a fifth column here in our midst (moonbats/PDS'ers). This is a war -- against Islamofacists and their liberal friends here -- that has already cost innocent lives (re:911). Because of technology - and the total destruction the Islamofacists advocate on us - if we need to take drastic measures (suspend habeas corpus, wiretap, etc) then we need to do it. Once the threat to our nation's survival is gone (and the traitors amongst us are rooted out/jailed) then we can go back to "nomral days". Freedom is not FREE - Lincoln took drastic measures in a much less dangerous time.

Jack Sorrento

Imux is a fascist, at the core. That should be clear to anybody at this point.

Election

Jack, that is a good point. The main mental process used by conservatives is projection. The most vocal anti-gay conservatives are gay themselves, for example. The most vocal anti-treason folks are the ones who need to be investigated because they are the ones who are probably plotting something against the US. These are well known principles and domestic Intel knows how to exploit them these days.

Imux

Imux is a fascist, at the core. That should be clear to anybody at this point.

Posted by: Jack Sorrento | October 24, 2007 at 11:17 AM


I was wondering when the ad hominem attacks would start from the lefties. You can't refute facts, so you attack the messenger. Whatever.

objective

Ad hominem attacks is exactly what you do constantly, Imux. In fact, that's the ONLY thing you engage in. Your contribution is inexistent.
As Election put it, projection by an unemployed mental case with KKK dreams, again.

>>
I was wondering when the ad hominem attacks would start from the lefties.

Bill Shelton

Norski and Sohl,

I think that the dimensions that you are adding to this conversation are important, relevant, and enrich it. When we try to get a grip on the immigration question, we find so much more attached to it. That doesn't exempt us from taking responsibility, but it cautions us regarding how to do so.

Everyone else,

I may be a treasonous, seditious, traitorous moon bat. Yet, I don't think that Imux's posts, however, truculent, offer any more evidence of his being racist than anyone else's posts here. Charging someone with being a racist because they want immigration laws enforced avoids the serious issues that we must confront.

Imux

Ad hominem attacks is exactly what you do constantly, Imux. In fact, that's the ONLY thing you engage in. Your contribution is inexistent.
As Election put it, projection by an unemployed mental case with KKK dreams, again.

>>
I was wondering when the ad hominem attacks would start from the lefties.

Posted by: objective | October 24, 2007 at 11:41 AM

Objective, may I remind you of this beauty of a post you heaved out earlier today "...Imux, you ignorant jackass, ...". then you proceeded to throw some opinion from a libaloon rag as fact.

Let it be noted that I quote real sources and backup what I post with facts. Unlike you and your friends. You may not like to hear the truth ("You can't HANDLE the TRUTH!"), but it is what it is. What I post is in line with the policies of President Bush and the democratic congress we now have. Go around the nation and speak with people -- my opinions are the opinions of the majority of Americans. You need to get out more and travel. K?

Imux

Charging someone with being a racist because they want immigration laws enforced avoids the serious issues that we must confront.

Posted by: Bill Shelton | October 24, 2007 at 11:50 AM

Thanks, Bill. I already laugh when I see the racist/xenophobe accusations when debating the immigration issues. I just take it from the source - these are people in a tank battle armed with dull forks.

Oh.. and when I call you all "...treasonous, seditious, traitorous moonbats..." I am saying it in the most compassionate conservative manner possible. ;>)

Bill Shelton

True. Although I don't think Imux is racist, in the sense that he would be against shooting illegal immigrants on the spot, I do believe he is a disgusting bigot. Sorry Imux, I did not want to give the impression that I like you. In fact, I think you are a rather miserable human being. But that is just my personal opinion.

James Norton

Everyone (esp Imux and Objective) -

I will be a little less abrasive with the people in this thread only because you as a group demonstrate through your posts that you have more cranial activity than the other gaggle of chuckleheads lobbing personal grenades at people who work at the DPW. STOP using embedded links (it violates JN's Rules). Thank you kindly and have a wonderful day.

JN

Election

Well said, JN. Sorry about the embedded links, I had no idea they were a problem (why are they a problem, BTW? I mean, there must be some reason).
How should we refer people to online articles, given that we cannot copy and paste them here due to Copyright issues? Thanks.

Imux

"...in the sense that he would be against shooting illegal immigrants on the spot..."

Bill, who said I'd be against it?

"Sorry Imux, I did not want to give the impression that I like you..."

Bill, I'm crushed.

"In fact, I think you are a rather miserable human being."

I'm actually a pretty happy guy. I get laid, drunk and make more money than most. What's there to be miserable about?

"But that is just my personal opinion."

Yep, and as a traitorous, seditious, Godless moonbat you are entitled to those misguided opinions. No big deal.

FED UP WITH ILLEGALS

I am sick and tired of the do-gooders in this city who defend the illegals and help them hide from the authorities with this outrageous sanctuary ordinance in Somerville. That is just a fancy name for protecting, aiding and abetting criminals!

Like it or not, illegal immigrants are criminals. They have evaded, disrespected and are in violation of our immigration laws. Just because they weaseled their way into our country does not entitle them to legal status because they demand it. What it should entitle them to is a big kick in the butt out of this country.

Every state, city and town in this country needs to make things as difficult and uncomfortable for illegals as possible, rather than try to make excuses for them and accommodate them. If things weren't so easy for them to continue to live here illegally, I am sure they would leave on their own. This would also send out signals to others who want to come to the United States and live here illegally. It would not be as attractive to them and they would not want to come here.

Anyone who defends criminals, alias illegal aliens, is a traitor. And, in my opinion, should be deported out of the U.S. with all the illegals. Would you defend and protect anyone else who has broken the law and committed a criminal offense, perhaps someone who has robbed someone? Probably not, but you will protect and defend the illegal immigrant who, by definition of our laws, is a criminal and here to rob the American tax payer and this country of welfare benefits, food stamps and low income housing.

Don't tell me they aren't here for handouts or are getting them. Ever hear of anchor babies? If an illegal alien has a baby in the United States, or an anchor baby, they can obtain a social security number for the infant who is an American citizen by birth. With the social security number, they are able to get every benefit including welfare in this country. And, let's not forget that illegals get free medical care because the hospitals can't deny them. We are paying for it with rising costs for our medical care, prescriptions and health insurance. They are here for handouts at our expense, I don't care what you say.

The illegal immigrant knows every way possible to get around and buck the system to evade the laws of this country that they don't want to abide by. We can't pick and choose the laws we live by in this country, but that's exactly what illegals are doing. We are expected to abide by all the laws, but the illegal does not feel they have to abide by immigration, employment or any other law of this country that they don't agree with? That is exactly what they are doing.

It is outrageous that anyone would defend and be supportive of criminals. That is exactly what you are doing when you support and defend illegals.

Somerville needs to remove the sanctuary ordinance and stop protecting them. Enough already! It is a disgrace.

Solh Zendeh

Hey Fed up. If you've read my previous posts, you know that I am not "pro" immigration of any kind. That said, I think you are getting angry at the wrong people.

We need to eliminate the ability for illegals to find work by massively fining/arresting those employers that willfully ignore our laws and employ them. And we need to stop using our tax dollars to subsidize our crops so that the world price of food crops drops so low that the Mexican/Brazilian farmers are *forced* to find other work. They *will* go home if we do those two things. And it won't take massive deportations etc, or elimination of Habeas corpus. I know Imux is all excited to do that, but it just isn't needed - living in fear of OBL is like living in fear of winning the lottery and then being hit by lightning. If you are constantly worried about it, someone needs to check your temperature and put you to bed until the fever passes.

Also, I think it's important to use the right words when describing vital issues such as this one. Illegally entering this country is a misdemeanor (I think, someone - cough, Imux - please correct me if I'm wrong), *not* a criminal offense.

Last, the honest truth is that most illegals are poor people that simply want to work hard and give a better life to their children. Circumstances in their own countries prevents this, and thus they come to where there are jobs - no matter how hard and thankless. That is not the behavior I observe in our own country where the idea of hard work and sacrifice has given way to spend, spend, spend - it's your duty in this time of war! Even if it's all on credit.

I would be tempted to keep most of the illegals and send some of our own - cough, Imux - back where they came from, if only to give them a refresher on what living in fear and want is really all about.

Craig

Imux:
"Moonbats and moonbat supporters, please tell me where any of my comments have been xenophobic or racist."

How about this dandy?
"A cop knocks on your door... you don't speak english... you have no papers.... then pack a bag...get on the tarmac.... take a plane ride...see ya later!!!

A cop knocks on your door... you speak english... you have valid papers.... then all set. Offer the cop a beer and thank him/her for cleaning the area up. Easy, right?"

Your argument here is that if someone isn't fluent in the prevailing (but not legally required) language, they should be deported if they don't have papers handy. But if that same person were fluent in english and didn't have papers, then they're fine. No need to lock them up.

Maybe that isn't necessarily racist, but it is xenophobic. And your whining that people are attacking you seems like the pot calling the kettle black.

And no, I don't think that the borders should be opened up and no laws enforced, etc etc. But I do believe in a rational approach to the situation based on more than just rhetoric and anger, which is pretty much all that you have spouted on the subject (and, as far as I can tell, any subject). I think Bill's post was a good one- balanced, fair, nonjudgemental. But of course he was run over by a flood (almost 80) of comments, many of them denouncing him as coddling all 'dem illegals.

The first step is to stop the access points. I believe that if it were truly impossible to enter the country without permission, we could then focus on the situation we are currently facing within the country. But just knocking on doors, arresting anyone with brown skin, an accent, and/or no fluency in a language they're not required to learn (unless they apply for citizenship) who doesn't happen to have their green card handy goes against so many principles that I believe in it's not funny. And they are principles that this country was founded on, which is why I said you love your country but hate what makes it great.

And don't bring up the terrorism issue. I don't remember Brazillians or Mexicans crashing the planes. It was Saudi students who entered on valid visas.

Kate

Craig - Excellent, rational, factual statement; thank you.

Kate

Sohl Zendeh - Excellent, rational, factual statement; thank you.

Election

Just today, I was reading this on CNN about the "terrorist list". Obviously, we are becoming a paranoid nation with completely ineffective tools to deal with our problems. Imux is just an example of this mentality.

Report: U.S. terror 'watch list' may be getting too long

"WASHINGTON (CNN) -- A new government report says there are now more than three quarters of a million names on the U.S. government's terrorist "watch list," raising concerns the list may be becoming too large. A Government Accountability Office study out Wednesday said the Terrorist Screening Center's watch list contained approximately 755,000 names. But because many potential suspects have multiple names or aliases on the list, investigators are not certain how many distinct individuals are actually represented. Sen. Joe Lieberman, the chairman of the Senate Homeland Security Committee, said the "sheer size" of the list raises concerns. Lieberman, I-Connecticut, said the list contains an even higher number of records than 755,000."

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/10/24/gao.terrorist.screening/index.html

Imux

Imbecilic-moonbats, you now want more handwringing and more discussions!?!?! Waste more money "talking about" this issue? Why!??!? They're breaking the goddamn laws being here - get them the out. Get them the out NOW! What is there to talk about? Nothing.

What the hell is wrong with you libs? If I was illegal in Mexico or Brazil - do you think those gov'ts would allow me to stay and even offer free services because I'm illegal? No. Why should we. Get them out.

Solh, I don't give a rat's ass what conditions exist in their own countries. They should improve their own countries rather than come here and ruin ours. Get them out. Arrest/Fine the employers that hire them. Do it now. Get them out. Put up machinegun nests on the border and spray the area every 2 minutes in every direction to prevent border crossings - if need be. Do what has to be done.

Craig, you have yet to debate facts. The only thing you've done is launch ad hominem attacks on me. Since I wouldn't even blow my nose in your general direction - why would I care what you think? Though while we're deporting the illegals we ought to look at those that support them and the fines / jail time we can levy.

Imux

Just today, I was reading this on CNN about the "terrorist list". Obviously, we are becoming a paranoid nation with completely ineffective tools to deal with our problems. Imux is just an example of this mentality.

Election, what's up with that last dig there? I thought you and I were amigos (in keeping with your mancrush on illegals) now? I'm devastated. :>)

We do have an effective tool to deal with illegals -- it's called round them up and deport the illegal SOBs.

it *is* funny

Imux, have you noticed that no one here is your "amigo"?

Rest of you, why would you engage with this creature? He's a troll.

Imux

Rest of you, why would you engage with this creature? He's a troll.

Posted by: it *is* funny | October 25, 2007 at 11:17 AM


Another lib debating "facts".

Election

Imux, you don't seem to realize the extent to which innocent individuals (including presumably yourself) can get "caught" by blanket procedures with little or no recourse, just due to errors in a sloppy system (HS is a pathetic and chaotic system, right now).
I don't want a system that rounds up innocent people by mistake. Not because I'm altruistic or anything, but because that innocent person could be ME (it could also be you, but that would not worry me; I'm not particularly altruistic, I already said it). Don't forget that the ONLY sure way to catch all the baddies is to put EVERYBODY in jail. That's not a feasible solution, though.

Imux

I don't want a system that rounds up innocent people by mistake. Not because I'm altruistic or anything, but because that innocent person could be ME (it could also be you, but that would not worry me; I'm not particularly altruistic, I already said it).

Election, how would innocent people get rounded up? You have a birth certificate, license and/or passport you're all set. You're letting your imaginations (tinfoil hat) run rampant. I'm saying that the people who cannot prove that they are here legally need to go immediately. For those in the grey areas (papers are not handy) then there should be a hearing set. If they don't show or still can't prove they're legal - then they go.

What's the big issue? We have laws for a reason. Let's enforce them.

Ron Newman (SF)

You have a birth certificate, license and/or passport you're all set.

Nobody is actually required to have such documents. Even when we do, they sometimes get stolen, destroyed by fires or floods, put in the bank safe deposit box instead of being kept at home, and other such possibilities.

Imux

Nobody is actually required to have such documents. Even when we do, they sometimes get stolen, destroyed by fires or floods, put in the bank safe deposit box instead of being kept at home, and other such possibilities.

Posted by: Ron Newman (SF) | October 25, 2007 at 11:41 AM

Ron, I don't know of ANY sane person who wouldn't have SOME document (ss card, birth certificate, license, passport) that would prove they're a citizen. And if for some reason someone loses it - then they need to replace them, right? Again... if there is a 'grey area' then you set a hearing to give those folks enough time to replace their documents. If they can't or they don't show - C-YA-LATER.

Why is that a problem? Enough debating this damn issue. Let's start solving it.

fwwest

At the risk of taking a verbal beating like you have been trying to give to Imux, here goes.
One of the differences between newbies and people born and raised in somerville,is that we remember a time when the city was not like it is today. While most of you moved in after it all started and have no recollection. you moved here because it is close to work,or school,and the social life you prefer. Much like Cambridge .where you wish you lived.
You do not like some of the easy solutions put forth here,and also are not willing to admit to the degree of gangs,criminal problems ect.that illegals have brought with them.
We have enough home grown criminal element in this country without the excess coming in illegally.
I for one do not support spending one $ for anything short of deportation,or jail and then deportation.
To those of you that have the guts to do so,it is very easy for you to find out first hand,just how safe certain areas are.
Here are two scenarios.
1. The next time you come home from work in Boston,get off at Sullivan,with your suit,tie briefcase,or computer,and walk,when it is dark,from Sullivan to Foss park and see how you feel.
2. Take your wife,girlfriend,mother,or daughter to Sullivan. Tell them to get out of the car and walk. Tell them you will be waiting at Louie's and you will buy them an ice cream. See what that gets you.

Election

I do that every day, with my suit, computer, Ipod and Iphone. Perhaps it's because I'm tall and pretty muscular, but nobody has given me any trouble around there, ever. On the contrary, people are quite friendly or at worst, they mind their own business.

Imux

2. Take your wife,girlfriend,mother,or daughter to Sullivan. Tell them to get out of the car and walk. Tell them you will be waiting at Louie's and you will buy them an ice cream. See what that gets you.

Well then, Election, do option #2 above. Tell your girlfriend/mother/daughter/"life partner" to take the same walk now when dark. How comfortable would you be?

I gotta admit I did burst our laughing when I read "...computer, Ipod and Iphone...". Somehow - I just knew.

Election

I forgot to mention, MacBookPro computer. I bought 2500 shares Apple shares in early 2003, paid something like $7/share then. I just unloaded them at over $180/share to finance some of my projects. Not bad. Together with my first condo, which I sold in 2005 at a huge profit, things are going pretty well around here, even for liberals.
You were saying? My GF? She's a cop, in case you don't know. I doubt she'd have trouble handling folks in the neighborhood, if necessary.

Grog29

Such a lively debate:-) !!!
Sorry I missed it when it started. Fun reading. Imux is great. The DREAM Act nightmare went down in flames yesterday! Best news in a while. That kills any amnesty for illegals talk at leat until 2009. The vast majority of Americans around the country DO believe in what Imux
has psted. How's it feel to be alienated in your own country
Marxists?

Craig

All I am trying to say is that a reasonable post was turned into an unreasonable tyraid by some folks, mostly you. You denigrate and name-call left and right, deny statements, and then when you are called on it you refer to it as nothing but "ad hominem" attacks on you.

Yes, I'm a "newbie" because in your definition I wasn't conceived and birthed here by parents who lived in the same house as their great-great-great grandparents. When I chose to live in Somerville, it was because I wanted a city with close-knit neighborhoods of solid people. And no, to pre-empt your anticipated attack that I must be an iPod owner (which apparently means something bad) I don't live in a high-end area. I actually live by Foss Park and see the day laborers every day while I wait for my bus to Sullivan Station.

There are approaches to the immigration issue that are actually do-able (as opposed to hiring 1,000 police officers to knock on every door for a month straight with overtime, possibly making some headway in one small city in one small state). Closing the borders, having a useful enforcement mechanism for employers to verify documentation (and be accountable), and raiding employers who break the law are common-sense, achievable measures that can be implemented in the next weeks or months.

Trampling on the Constitution isn't the way to do it. You may have no problem with the government searching you and your home without provocation, but I do. And so does our founding document.

Ron Newman

1. The next time you come home from work in Boston,get off at Sullivan,with your suit,tie briefcase,or computer,and walk,when it is dark,from Sullivan to Foss park and see how you feel.
2. Take your wife,girlfriend,mother,or daughter to Sullivan. Tell them to get out of the car and walk. Tell them you will be waiting at Louie's and you will buy them an ice cream. See what that gets you.

Walking from Sullivan Square to any part of Somerville is uncomfortable, not because of the people who live there, but because you have to walk under a dark highway underpass on narrow sidewalks next to speeding traffic. Unfortunately this is all in Charlestown (Boston), so the Somerville city government can't do much about it. I feel fine as soon as I reach the Mount Vernon Restaurant.

Ron Newman

Much like Cambridge .where you wish you lived.

Wrong, I'm quite happy where I am, and if I move, it will most likely be within Somerville.

Election

Ron, I agree with you. If I worry about something is getting run over by some demented driver on a cell phone. Certainly, not getting mugged.

Election

I spend most of my day in Cambridge, for work. It's a nice place to work at and to meet other people for biz, but I prefer to live in Somerville.

Kate

Imux aka Grog29:

SS cards and driver's licenses DO NOT prove citizenship. (And you think you know it all)

fwwest

While I think the idea of making employers liable is in part a viable solution,I also think we have to aggressively enforce the laws.
I am not advocating the trashing of the constitution,9incidentally,which part of the constitution protects illegals /)but if yours is the best workable solution to use,then why don't we apply it to the rest of the criminal element in our society.
Maybe we should all walk around in rags,living in cardboard huts etc, with nothing of any value to anyone. Maybe then all the criminals would decide there is nothing here for them and ride off into the sunset in search of greener pastures....just a thought

Imux

Closing the borders, having a useful enforcement mechanism for employers to verify documentation (and be accountable), and raiding employers who break the law are common-sense, achievable measures that can be implemented in the next weeks or months.

Craig, nice to see you that you're finally seeing the light and getting on the winning team. You and I are in agreement with your above statement. I think where we disagree - just a little - is that I would have ICE do some raids in and around Foss for a month or so and check papers. But...Welcome aboard!

"When I chose to live in Somerville, it was because I wanted a city with close-knit neighborhoods of solid people."
Craig, I hate to inform you of this, but you're misguided moonbat/libaloonisms is exactly what is driving those families away. And yes... the house I own and live in here (I own others here and elsewhere) has been since my great-grandparents. I was born here and so were my kids.

Ron/Election, what is your solution to the illegal immigration problem? Keep welcoming the illegals in? Provide more FREE tuition and more services? Well, I can tell you now that - outside of Davis Sq. -- you two should keep those opinions to yourselves. The tide is turning.

Election, I too owned AAPL and just sold an even better one (FRPT). It's a war stock, but hey it went from $4 to $30 in less than a year. I bought low (around ~$6) and sold high (~$27). Made a killing in 6 months. Good things happen to good people. What can I say?

Kate

"Good things happen to good people."

And sometimes good things happen to heartless bastards.

Ron Newman

Election - I might worry about being mugged, too, because the area between Sullivan Square and the Mount Vernon is a poorly-lit concrete wasteland. But on Broadway in Somerville? No way, there are plenty of people around.

Craig

Wow, if you think closing the borders and raiding employers is liberal "moonbat"-ness, then forget it- you're too far gone.

Really, what's it like to be so mad all the time?

Election

Whomever advocates violating principles of the US Constitution should be immediately stripped of US citizenship. Then they can beg some South American banana republic for asylum.

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