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October 22, 2007

Comments

sgtmajorbrad

It is interesting that someone wants to cite government statistics about crime and incarceration concerning hispanics when there are no categories for hispanics as offenders. THere are plenty if they are victims? The FBI cites that hispanic is not classified as a race but an ethnic representation and for statistical purposes they are classified as white. So how can any discussion be relevant when the data is non existent? Here is another example of pandering to the baby raping, drunk driving, benefit stealing, identity thieving illegal aliens!

Norski

This opinion piece relies on "peer reviewed" studies performed on ALL IMMIGRANTS regardless of Legal Status. But as most people realize Illegal Immigrants make up only about one quarter of the U.S. Immigrant population. And most people realize that Legal Immigrants are screened so that the most honest, law abiding, and healthy gain legal entry. And those of us who know statistics know that the size and characteristics of our Legal, CONTROLLED Immigration will wash out the effects of ILLEGAL Immigrants when the two are lumped together. And those of us who pay attention know that the recent Heritage study that showed a net cost to Society of $20,000 per Illegal Immigrant Family per year know that that cost applies IF THEY ARE GRANTED AMNESTY. And those of us to have taken more that the basic courses in Economics know that excessive immigration leads to falling wages and unemployment IN THE MARKETS WHERE THE EXCESSIVE IMMIGRANTS SEEK EMPLOYMENT. If a flood of Farm Workers comes from Mexico into the U.S. Southwest that does not affect Engineering Salaries, News Article Writer Salaries, or Accountant Salaries. Yet this opinion piece would have us believe that the fact that Engineering Salaries, News Article Writer Salaries, and Accountant Salaries remain unchanged means Farm Worker Salaries are also unaffected, which is not true. In fact, the number of Americans earning poverty level wages was increasing until the latest crackdown on Illegal Immigrants started. And U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics Data show that real Construction wages and real Material Movement wages have been falling. The U.S.B.L.S. does not maintain statistics on Farm Labor – I wonder why? Seldom does one see such a deceptive use of statistics as this opinion piece.

mary lu mendonca

What a great article! Well-written and well-researched. Thanks.

prosanity

Thank you, thank you, thank you!

It is so rare to actually see an article that highlights the facts about what immigrants bring to our economy and exposes the lies- our media often portrays immigrants as a breed of criminals who slurp up our resources and prey on honest Americans. This is not only ludicrous, but disgusting.

I hope that we can get beyond the fear, scape-goating, and hatred that the pundits like Lou Dobbs have tried to turn into the cornerstone of any immigration debate. It's about time that we learn from our history, embrace our cultural richness, and pass smart, humane legislation that moves us forward, not backward, as a nation.

William Hurst

Bill, enough is enough. Can you find something else to write about which concerns the city of Somerville. You write well, you do your research which is obvious. But, this is the Somerville News not USA today or the World Report. FYI, immigrants regardless of legality can collect state benefits and not federal. This includes education, housing, medical and whatever else Massachusetts has to offer. It is a violation of state law to ask ones immigrant status. As far as Social Security is concerned, elderly immigrants who have never worked in this country and came here to live with their children are entitled to collect.

it *is* funny

William -- with all due respect, I've never seen an issue that raises such ire as immigration in our city. We've had an influx of immigrants, legal or not, and we are in a budget crises which puts pressure on everything and every one. Shouldn't Bill be able to raise this topic for discussion among some very engaged citizens? What's the problem?

lifelong res

Bill, Where should I start? 1st, let's put the criminal aspect aside. That obviously is not the most taxing issue (pun intended). In most Massachusetts communities, it is illegal to ask if someone is legal or not. They can automatically receive benefits from the state, not the federal government (food stamps is federal, so is Section 8). Good for the illegals that they pay SS and do not receive any $. What about all the money they cost us with services we provide them without some of them paying taxes to our city and/or state. And, of course, there must not be any legals that cleaned houses that are now out of business because illegals can charge less. And, what about all the construction jobs lost because of the illegals? Take a good look around Somerville, especially Foss Park! What about all the illegals that come here and do not have documentation of vaccinations, etc.? Lastly, my family did come here from another country -- legally, passed through Ellis Island with all their papers in order with a sponsor and a job.

it *is* funny

Oh wait, I thought of another issue ... parking. But the immigrant issue deserves debate, the parking issue just requires folks to live by the (sometimes annoying but ultimately fair) restrictions put in place by the city.

Ron Newman (SF)

> I've never seen an issue that raises such ire as immigration in our city.

Does it really cause ire in the city, or just here on this blog, which gets periodically invaded by right-wingers from other places far from Somerville?

I hear a lot more concern about: whether the Green Line will be built on schedule; the quality of schools; parking; Assembly Square.

it *is* funny

Personally, I hear about this a lot out in the "real" world. People in line at the post office will roll their eyes about the non-English speakers on line. Many supposed "liberals" feel uncomfortable about the Foss Park situation and mention it over a beer at Redbones. The conversation does get hijacked by racists and fools, but the debate is out there waiting to be had.

dando

I think the last paragraph hit the nail on the head. Wonderful. And who called it deceptive? How can debunking myths be deceptive. It's myths that are deceptive, if anything.

cabbie

The topic that really has Somerville wondering though is what's with the "(SF)" behind Newman's name.

Ron, are you a Single Female now?

Ron Newman

No, it means Soxfan -- Typepad seems to reuse my login from the Yanksfan vs Soxfan forum.

Imux

Does it really cause ire in the city, or just here on this blog, which gets periodically invaded by right-wingers from other places far from Somerville?

Ron, when did you arrive in our fair city? Unless you were born -- you're not from here. I think we should get that straight.

Most people I know -- and some surprising lefties I know -- are very, very concerned about the illegals and what is happening in East Somerville. Ask any woman (if you know any that shave their armpits) how comfortable they are walking in East Somerville now.

Ron Newman

I arrived here in Somerville for good in 1984, though I also spent a few months here in 1979.

Imux

1984!!!!! You're a newbie, so please put a cork in it. You shouldn't appempt to speak for the city as you and your ilk represent only the davis square crowd and everyone knows they want to be part of Cambridge now.

The illegals have overwhelmed the city and the services that should be going to legal immigrants and real americans.

The cost of illegal immigrants?

Posted: Friday, March 31 at 07:00 am CT by Bob Sullivan
In the noisy immigration debate raging in Washington, there is one voice NOT being heard.

The voice of identity theft victims.

Behind many of the nation’s millions of undocumented workers are someone else's documents. To get a job, illegal immigrants need a Social Security number, and they often borrow one. As victim Melody Millet is fond of saying, U.S. citizens are being forced to share their identities with undocumented immigrants to give corporate America a steady supply of cheap labor.
Read here

Ron Newman

1984 is 23 years ago. Many Somerville natives haven't been here that long.

whatsuva

Are people thick? He didn't say that everything's swell about illegal immigration. He didn't say there are no legit claims against it, but the opposite. He countered spins and myths. BIG DIFFERENCE.
Some people better stick with Lou Dobbs...and his soundbites, since objective information can be 'complicated'.

whatsuva

Are people thick? He didn't say that everything's swell about illegal immigration. He didn't say there are no legit claims against it, but the opposite. He countered spins and myths. BIG DIFFERENCE.
Some people better stick with Lou Dobbs...and his soundbites, since objective information can be 'complicated'.

Imux

We need ICE to start going house to house and checking papers. Anyone here illegally - just stack them into planes and away they go.

Simple solution -- we don't need to make this complicated. They're here ILLEGALLY!!! They're breaking the goddamn law. Get them out. Now. We know the morons running this city don't have the balls to do it for fear of alienting the moonbat PDS'ers, so let the feds do it. Start stacking the lowlife illegals in planes and fly them back to the ghettos they came from. Easy solution.

Ron Newman

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

it *is* funny

Ya but ... are these *all* the people, or those who are here legally? Citizens?

Don't get me wrong, I don't support a big ICE raid on families living here, regardless of their status, but does this quote fit the scenario we are talking about?

Ron Newman

Well, yeah, because a house-to-house search would mean a search of you, and me, and Imux, and everyone else. Demanding papers that we might not have handy, or might not have at all, even though we're citizens.

Bill Shelton

Sgtmajorbrad,

Despite your description of this column, I take your contention that there are no government statistics for Hispanic inmates as sincere. You are sincerely mistaken. The Bureau of Justice Statistics keeps more comprehensive crime statistics than does the FBI. I am going to respect Jamie’s prohibitions on links, but if you go to the Bureau of Justice Statistics’ website, you will find inmates categorized not only as Hispanic, but as nonHispanic Blacks and nonHispanic Whites. I have deep respect for Sergeant Majors because their years of on-the-ground reality have given them more practical wisdom than the commissioned officers to whom they often report. Accordingly, I’m sure that you will respect on-the-ground facts.

Norski,

Your distinction between legal and illegal immigrants is the right one to make, and the one that I made in this column. The prison statistics are for undocumented inmates. The Social Security Administration’s suspense file speaks for itself. The Princeton University and University of California studies focused only on undocumented immigrants. Virtually all studies that are verifiable, reproducible, and transparent in their methodology arrive at the same conclusions. The U.S. HHS statistics were, as you suggest and I state in the article, for both legal and illegal immigrants. But I cited them only to show that immigrants are not vectors for disease. If this column is deceptive, then a lot of government officials and nonpartisan researchers are deceiving us. I wonder what their motivations could be.

Mary Lu, and Prosanity,

Thank you for your kind words. I suspect that you will be disappointed with where I ultimately come. But I believe that we have to address the myths. If they are true, then fear and anger are appropriate responses. But they are not true, and fear and anger can turn into hatred and persecution. Policies based on falsehoods will not achieve their intended objectives, but will produce unintended consequences that are harmful to citizens.

Mr. Hurst,

I take seriously your injunction to write about what is relevant to Somerville. I don’t always succeed. But we have more than our share of undocumented immigrants, and I believe that the response to this column shows that it is relevant to many readers, whether or not they agree with it.

Lifelong resident,

Please post more often. I think that your contributions add to the conversation. The application forms for Mass Health, Welfare, etc. do ask about citizenship. But as I acknowledged, illegal immigrants can “game” the system. The best data suggest that they don’t often do it.

Election

Those who cannot find their papers would be hanged, I suppose...

I love illegals

Illegal immigrants are great for painting, scraping, demolition, landscaping, and cleaning your pipes!

Imux

Ron/Bill:

What part of WHITE MAKES RIGHT don't you understand?!?

As you know, Somerville was founded by my uncle Giuseppe from Italy. If you are not a direct descendant of Uncle Giuseppe, your opinions are invalid.

Bill Shelton

Dang, Imux!

Now that you've let the cat out of the bag that I'm unrelated to Uncle Giuseppe, please try not to spread it around too much. I'd like to keep writing for this newspaper. Capisce?

somebody

I don't agree with this article's stance on immigration's effect on joblessness among citizens. Here are my reasons:

1. The definition of unemployment has some flaws in the way it represents people without work. Those no longer "actively searching for work" are not considered part of the work force, and are therefore not considered unemployed.
Someone unsuccessful in finding work after some number of months (I can't remember how many. 9? 12?) are no longer considered to be "actively searching for work", and thus drop out of the work force. So it is possible (and likely) that a large influx of immigrants is affecting joblessness among citizens, but the unemployment rate is not portraying that.

2. This article points to a quote that a large influx of immigrants has been correlated to large economic growth. But so what? Economic growth doesn't always translate to less joblessness among citizens. It doesn't take a genius to realize that having a large pool of cheap labor (immigrants) is going to allow our country as a whole to be more productive and boost our economy. However, that economic boom for our country doesn't get evenly distributed among everyone, especially for those that lost their jobs to cheaper labor. What good is it to someone without a job that the economy is booming? Their not seeing the benefits obviously; afterall, they are without a job. Some might argue that the economic growth will create more job opportunities, but again so what? The new job opportunities won't be for the person who lost their job, because the job opportunities he/she qualifies for will just go to immigrant cheap labor.

William Hurst

Bill, in this forum I keep asking one question, "When do we close the door". At some point this has to be done. When you (or anyone else) write articles pertaining to illegal immigrants the response is always disappointing. The conversation becomes heated and filled with hatred and sometimes racism. We all know that immigrants come to this country looking for a better life. So knowing this and just for the sake of an argument let us give every immigrant who comes here a Social Security number and resident status. I want everyone here to tell me where are these "new" US citizens going to work. But William they already have jobs is what I hear. You are right they do have jobs, but can they keep these jobs once they become citizens. We continue to lose manufacturing and other low paying jobs to other countries around the world. Seeing how we cannot afford to send every child in this country to college how can we do this for our new "citizens". How do we educate and train someone for a job that does not exist?

Craig

Imux-

Do you have your passport handy? Your birth certificate within reach? Because if you don't, and the ICE comes knocking, you will dragged away as well to join your "friends" down at the federal pen. Although, considering your other post, I can only guess you were being facetious. Good Lord, I hope so...

Imux

To the imbecile that posted as me with the racist comment: GFY.

To the imbecile(s) who think ILLEGAL immigrants have the same right as citizen(s): GFY(s).

I'll make this easy for the moonbats:

A cop knocks on your door... you don't speak english... you have no papers.... then pack a bag...get on the tarmac.... take a plane ride...see ya later!!!

A cop knocks on your door... you speak english... you have valid papers.... then all set. Offer the cop a beer and thank him/her for cleaning the area up. Easy, right?

somebody

Imux,

What if I speak English and don't have my valid papers handy?

Or what if I don't speak English and do have valid papers, but can't understand what the cop is saying? This is possible since English is not the US official language. English is the US de facto language. You tend to be hung up on "the law is the law". Well there is no law that says that you have to speak English to be a citizen. (I'm not saying I agree with that, but currently that is the law.)

Ron Newman

Imux would have loved living in East Germany.

Imux

What if I speak English and don't have my valid papers handy?

I would just recommend people who don't speak english, but are here legally keep their papers handy. Otherwise, expect a plane ride.

You got to break a few eggs to make an omelette. This might sound cold, but we need to start cracking heads and getting these illegals and their gangs under control.

My solution is easy... no reason to make this complicated. Get them out and get them out now.

Ron Newman (SF)

Why bother with the plane ride when you could just hang a noose in Union Square? Hand out white sheets to your fellow citizens to wear during the ceremonies.

Imux

Imux would have loved living in East Germany.

Posted by: Ron Newman | October 23, 2007 at 10:33 AM

Ron, I have been nice to you in spite of my utter revulsion and disgust for all that you and your little moonbat "friends" stand for (pro-terrorist, anti-God, anti-US, pro-anyone-who-hates-the-US, pro-anklegrabber, pro-women-who-wear-comfortable-shoes, pro-abortion, pro-illegals, monuments-named-after-"arteeeeeests"-not-firefighters/police/soldiers, moveon.org-lover and other assorted commie, libaloon, wacked out positions) - so please, pleeease don't force me to take the gloves off and kick your dumb ass up between your shoulder blades (again) on this forum.

Adults are trying to discuss issues. Go ride your tricycle around davis and just hope that I don't forget to look before I fling my car door open. K?

cabbie

Imux,

You and others from the right constantly call people on the left "moonbats" (among other derogatory terms). Yet there's nothing nuttier than than rolling over and letting our own government reduce our Constitutional rights to single ply toilet paper. Your plan would be a flagrant violation of the Fourth Amendment. Yet you don't have a problem with that? Frankly I'd like to see our immigration laws enforced but not at the expense of my rights and our Constitution.

cabbie

And not that Ron needs me to defend him, so I won't.
BUT
Your statement above makes it clear that once the illegals are driven out, you'll move on to the liberals, then the artists, then the women with comfortable shoes, etc.

It must be hell being you. Being so afraid of change and the many things you don't understand. Feeling threated as you do by anyone who disagrees with you. Yeah, must suck to be you.

At least it should.

Imux

Imux,

You and others from the right constantly call people on the left "moonbats" (among other derogatory terms). Yet there's nothing nuttier than than rolling over and letting our own government reduce our Constitutional rights to single ply toilet paper. Your plan would be a flagrant violation of the Fourth Amendment. Yet you don't have a problem with that? Frankly I'd like to see our immigration laws enforced but not at the expense of my rights and our Constitution.

Posted by: cabbie | October 23, 2007 at 11:00 AM

Cabbie, we're at war. I may not have been clear about my positions, so let me clarify any grey areas. I'm all for suspending habeas corpus, rounding up the illegals and their pro-terrorist supporters and re-educating the lot of them. The terrorists want to strike us again and make 911 look like a walk in the park. I have 2 nephews killing them over there, so we don't have to kill them here. It's time we got serious here.

And please...stop throwing the Constitution in my face! It’s just a goddamned piece of paper!

bojafi

yo no speako very gud inglish so please bair with me.
It is so good to be an immigrant to this country! I certainly enjoy life here. We make lot more money here, I live more comfortable here, My family is safer here. Do you think I'm going back? I got many reasons to stay, I'm not even sorry that it bothers people like imux. Guess what, he/she/it just has to learn to live with it. I did not mention my legal status because it dose not make any difference. We are here to stay.

Bill Shelton

Somebody,

I think that your points about unemployment rate methodology and the "economic boom" are legitimate.

Willaim Hurst,

Good points as well. My answer to your question is "Now."

Imux,

Now you're scaring me when you say that the Constitution is just a piece of paper. I share Cabbie's apprehension, but I think that there is a solution to your concerns that doesn't involve tearing up that piece of paper.

Imux

Bill, drastic times call for drastic measures. Lincoln suspended hebeas corpus for a threat much less than we face now. Time to have the cops and all city/state and federal officials working on rooting out the illegals/terrorists.

Oh yeah... if you see Jamie today please tell him that bojafi is posting from the bench nearest broadway in Foss park. I'll call ICE now.

Bass

The author does nothing more than use studies and statistics that anti-immigrant people do. It is hard today to determine which of the studies are correct. We as citizens listen to many people on both sides of the fence and they tout studies and polls and other surveys so today you cannot say which is true and which are not so this author is no different than all in the past. But here are a few real facts.

1. There is no such thing as a person being an undocumented worker and in this country legally. So the term undocumented worker is false and used to tone down what that person really is. If the person came into this country via illegal means then they are illegal aliens such as they use the term legal aliens as well.

2. If the larger percent of illegal aliens pay taxes this can only occur if they have a social security card. Whether it is illegal or not they have to have it if they are an employee of the company. If they are not an employee then they are a consultant type person and will receive a 1099 which requires them to pay taxes and when you do not file the IRS will come after you and in order to get a 1099 you have to have a social security card. If the illegal alien has a card it is most likely an illegal social security card thus breaking the law even more.

3. Illegal aliens are not all violent but they are illegal. They did break our laws.

4. Hospitals will treat illegals when needed. I do not believe they try to use many public services for that only makes them surface more into the light but will do so when needed.

5. There were immigration laws before 1921 such as the banning of more Chinese in this country. I come from Irish citizens from the potato famine and my great great grandfather back in the 1850's did legally obtain his citizenship by going through the laws and courts and I have the documents.

6. The real problem with illegal immigration especially south of our border is the actual country's fault. Mexico for example has been a corrupt nation since eon's. They have a natural resource industries and tourist industries and they still do nothing for their people. Remember there are 2 types of Mexicans. Spainish decent and the indigenous peoples like from the Incas. Guess who gets and who doesn't? Those who do not get come here and it is Mexico's way of paying them welfare plus benefiting from the money sent back. I have read with no proof that illegal aliens send back to Mexico 23 billion a year. Where is that going? To Mexico's economy.

The immigration issue is a great debate on both sides of the fence. The fact of life is that people who go through the legal process wait 7, 12, 15, 20 years to get into this country. I know, my step daughter is at 7 years and still counting. Fix the legal system then fix the borders. If you set up a good, fair and timely legal immigration process without these huge backlogs and waiting periods and also tell places like Mexico until you start to fix your country we will ban all peoples from your country from coming here legal or illegal you will never make progress.
Thank you.

Norski

Bill Shelton - Thanks for your response. To answer your comment "If this column is deceptive, then a lot of government officials and nonpartisan researchers are deceiving us. I wonder what their motivations could be." I would submit that I have often wondered the same thing. Why, after Caesar Chavez testified before Congress complaining about the practice of Strike Breaking using Illegal Immigrants, did the U.S. Government stop tracking Farm Worker Wages? Why does one branch of the U.S. Government claim to not know anything about Illegal Immigrants because they do not compile those statistics, then another branch releases statistics that include information on Illegal Immigrants?

With regards to the term "bipartisan" I have observed that if a bunch of members of one party get together and invite one person from the other party who leans their way and then they claim to be "bipartisan". And with regards to the term "nonpartisan" I have observed that it usually means the authors were not politicians but they still seem to have a pronounced point of view. These labels mean nothing without also looking at the underlying assumptions of the study. The studies you discuss have been in print and the underlying methodology falls prey to the single largest misconception in the Illegal Immigrant debate. That is that the current system is "broken". The current system actually does what it is intended to do, keep out criminals and allow people to come in who will not undercut wages and cause unemployment. And a million people a year do come legally. Recently, there was a study that showed Illegal Immigrants depressed wages for U.S. Citizens in the unskilled labor market. The Author was so browbeaten that he actually "amended" his study to get some peace. So much for a free exchange of ideas, accepting studies for what they are, and the quality of peer review.

If properly done studies showed Illegal Immigrants were a good thing I would not be complaining. But as three generations of my family were construction workers and because my Father impressed upon me how important it is to stand up for the hard working people of this nation I cannot help but speak out. Recently someone claimed that we should leave economics out of the Illegal Immigrant debate because is only clouds the issue. But Illegal Immigration is first and foremost about economics. The person was trying to “make the debate more civil” but in fact he was only trying to screen out every fact and viewpoint that he did not agree with. Debate is not about agreement. It is about acknowledging EVERYONE’S viewpoint, even if you do not agree with it. A fact is a fact no matter who says it, even if you do not like to hear it. And a flawed study is a flawed study even if Einstein did it.

Norski

Somebody - Here are the figures you are looking for from http://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/empsit.pdf "The number of unemployed persons (7.2 million) and the unemployment rate (4.7 percent) were essentially unchanged in September." and "Nearly 1.3 million persons (not seasonally adjusted) were marginally attached to the labor force in September, about the same as a year earlier. These individuals wanted and were available to work and had looked for a job sometime during the prior 12 months. They were not counted as unemployed because they had not searched for work in the 4 weeks preceding the survey." The total number of unemployed in the U.S. is at least 8.5 million people. Meanwhile The Office of Immigration Statistics in the Department of Homeland Security estimated that 10.5 million Illegal Immigrants were living in the United States in January 2005. That equates to about 6.3 million working Illegal Immigrants. In 2006 the Pew Hispanic Center estimated 12 million Illegal Immigrants, of which 7 million were working. This year the Social Security Administration estimated serious problems with filings for 8 million people, 90% of which were estimated to be due to Illegal Immigrants, which represents 7.2 million working Illegal Immigrants. No matter how you slice it there are more unemployed Citizens and Legal Residents that there are working Illegal Immigrants.

Imux

No matter how you slice it there are more unemployed Citizens and Legal Residents that there are working Illegal Immigrants.

Posted by: Norski | October 23, 2007 at 01:37 PM


Exactly. Why we need to debate something that is as plain as the nose on our faces is beyond me. The solution is simple: We need more ICE raids and then we also need to prosecute employers who hire them and the people who support them.

Yorktown Street

Norski, what do you think about the fact that major labor unions are now trying to organize among immigrant workers and unite the working class, white, black, and brown?

Norski

Yorktown Street - You bring up an interesting aspect of the Illegal Immigrant situation when you mention Union Behavior. The union movement has changed radically in the past few years. The Construction Trades, the SEIU, and the Teamsters have all left the AFL/CIO over differences in strategy. And the UFW has made changes too. Each Union is responding differently to Illegal Immigrants. Unions heavily involved in businesses where Illegal Immigrants are a larger part of the workforce are taking the attitude that if Washington is not going to do anything to protect Citizen and Legal Resident Workers they should organize Illegal Immigrants so as to protect rank and file Union Member Wages. And they are taking the attitude that we had better not deport the Illegal Immigrants once they are organized because if we do their time and efforts to organize them is going to waste. Make no mistake about it, Unions want an end to Illegal Immigration, but only if it results in the Illegal Immigrants joining their Unions. And some unions still take the traditional view that Illegal Immigrants should be deported.

The romantic assumption that unions are there to "unite the working class, white, black, and brown" is fun to contemplate but no organization in the history of mankind has ever accomplished such lofty goals. Not even the various religions of the world. Unions exist because the companies in the industries that spawn them treat their workers poorly. In my family we have three generations of Construction Workers. All were either hurt or killed on the job. And that is after the Union demanding safe working conditions. The only way to protect the worker with bad management is with a union. And bad management is the best recruiting tool. Union representation in the U.S. is shrinking because Management is beginning to understand this – except those reprobate employers who hire Illegal Immigrants and treat their employees poorly.

Craig

Cabbie's hit the nail on the head. Imux seems to be afraid, and rather than deal with a situation rationally he has now become judge, jury and executioner of the world. That's the real scary thing- people who have that attitude.

You obviously love this country, but hate everything that makes it great. That and your constant anger and hatred (like most rightwing wackos) towards everything that isn't you must make your life fairly miserable.

How sad.

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