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April 29, 2007

Comments

What do I get?

Tell me please what advantage my kids would receive as legal citizens, children of legal citizens, and grandchildren of legal immigrants?

Dr. Mrs. McCarthy

What do you get??????????

Maybe, just maybe, a whole new generation of children of illegal immigrants who will have a good paying job after going to college.

Just thinking out loud..........

An Immigrants Child,

Dr. Mrs. McCarthy

William Hurst

Why just limit it to illegal immigrants. Why dont we subsidize every ones education from around the world and across the globe. The fact is this, the majority of illegal immigrants that work here are doing so using false documentation or working under a relatives social security number (one guy I worked with was using his brothers ID) This isnt the Foss park crowd of illegals who are "doing work/labor that no on else wants to do". These people are hired by temp agencies and placed in large corporations where no benefits have to be given, no health care, no social security,no federal/state taxes, no workers unemployment taxes or workers compensation insurance, no vactions or sick time. Companies are eliminating full time positions and filling them with temp workers. Yes it is a shame corporate America is using these people like this but the good news is it puts people who are here legally out of work and on the unemployment line. Lastly, how is it that the majority of 20-60 year people who come here are on student visas? What schools are they going to? And if you think that illegal immigrants are only gathering at Foss park and looking for day work, then you are either ignorant as to what goes on or you just dont care.

ENOUGH!

I'm so tired of OUR government handing over the store to people who don't belong here. Where is the incentive to come legally, or to get an education and get ahead, when all of the benefits, and jobs, are being handed over to illegals. The Democrats better wake up, because the people are tired of this (and that includes the legal immigrants!). Check with the Somerville School Dept. or at City Hall and ask them how many positions have had requirements recently added stating you must speak Spanish (or another language).
And could an economist out there please explain to me how giving hundreds of people a break on tuition will bring money into the state? They must be kidding with that one!

Ron Newman

This has nothing to do with handing out anything. It just says that people who live in Massachusetts pay Massachusetts tuition rates at Massachusetts state schools -- regardless of their immigration status.

Citizens

It should be 'Massachusetts citizens'. Citizens of other countries who merely 'live in Massachusetts' should not be receiving benefits which I am paying for.

William Hurst

To Mr Ron Newman, if someone moves here from New Hampshire gets a job in Massachusetts but remains a NH citizen (you know for car ins purposes) shouldnt they get the instate tuition rate? They live here, why not. What about the family from Colorado, whose child goes to Umass, once they are here are they not residents of this state? Oh I see, they are still legally from Colorado just like they are citizens of Brasil or France or Ireland or pick a country. Jobs and jobs alone are what this all comes down to, thousands of jobs in Massachusetts (electronics, printing etc etc) with hourly wages of $12.50 to $23.00 per hour are lost to illegal immigrants. People are out of work because of this and we want to reward those who take our jobs illegally, nice country. For the good politicians who support this, this is one reason (not the only one) why people are leaving this great state. To Pat, Denise and Devall, when was the last time someone from another state said "we want to model our state and city governments after the way it is done in Massachusetts". After all boys and girls we are the only state in this great union we call the USA that is free of corruption, political BS etc etc etc.

Ron Newman

From UMass-Boston's web site:

"A person shall be classified as a Massachusetts resident if he or she (or the parent of an unemancipated student) shall have resided in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts for purposes other than attending an educational institution for twelve months immediately preceding the student's entry or re-entry as a student. Physical presence for this entire twelve-month period need not be required as long as the conduct of the individual, taken in total, manifests an intention to make Massachusetts his or her permanent dwelling place."

and also

"In general, an out-of-state student must have moved to Massachusetts for reasons other than attending college to qualify for in-state tuition."

So the New Hampshire resident has to move to Massachusetts at least a year before enrolling at UMass, and has to intend to remain a Massachusetts resident afterwards.

numbers

Two things: 1) It saddens me to read the words "people who dont belong here" from someone that I am assuming lives in Somerville. Are you a native american or a "gringo" (word that describes oldcomers)
And 2)Once again it shows how ignorant people can be. Does anyone of you who opposes in-state college tuition know how much are we talking about? I am not sure how many of you have attended any state college lately. Perhaps before start dehumanizing people, do your homework and then come up with arguments. Do me a favor call BHCC and ask them what is the cost of a college semester, in addition ask them to break the amount, ask them how much is the student fees.
The reason the proposal will generate income rather than expenses to the state is because, there are many other hidden fees. Besides, the same way you are paying taxes, these children's parents are also paying taxes,so what is the problem?


William Hurst

So, these parents are paying taxes? Under what name and social security number? A relative, friend or perhaps someone who is deceased. As far as the "they dont belong here comment" is concerned, it is a distasteful comment, but people are breaking the law. When you use counterfeit documentation to obtain a drivers license or social security number you are violating FEDERAL and STATE laws. I dont know if that information is on the Umass web site, knowing this state probably not. I love how people say are you native american? they feel that only native americans can make the comment "you do not belong here". Look it up, or let us educate one another, they migrated here from asia (mongolia) to be specific. So they are mongolian americans, with no more rights to this country and its land then you or I have.

Citizens


"A person shall be classified as a Massachusetts resident if he or she shall have resided in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts for purposes other than attending an educational institution.."
~And what exactly do these people do, exactly, sign an affidavit stating why they came here?

"...Physical presence for this entire twelve-month period need not be required as long as the conduct of the individual...manifests an intention to make Massachusetts his or her permanent dwelling place."
~That's interesting, that allows for those yearly trips back to the home country to tell everyone how stupid the Americans are, and encourage their friends and family to come here, too! And what 'conduct' can prove that you plan to be a permanent resident? Again, an affidavit??

"..an out-of-state student must have moved to Massachusetts for reasons other than attending college to qualify for in-state tuition."
~Again, what exactly is used to determine their reasons for moving here??
Get a grip, the people are fed up with the handouts to people who have broken our laws to get here, break laws to stay and work here, and are pushing citizens and legal immigrants aside in doing so. I have talked to many legal immigrants, including my parents, who are incensed that they played by the rules, and the benefits are given to those who did not. Massacusetts politicians need to realize that they were elected by the CITIZENS of the Commonwealth to legislate and advocate for the CITIZENS of the Commonwealth. When they start electing MA legislators in Mexico and Brazil (how soon do you think?), then they can spend their tax-payer funded time advocating for THOSE citizens.

Ron Newman

You asked how state colleges determine the status of someone who moved here from New Hampshire. The page that I quoted from answers your question.

Brittain33

You're misreading it. It means that if you've lived here for a year and attended college for that time you can't turn around and call yourself a Massachusetts resident. Move here 18, go to U. Mass immediately, you can't claim in-state tuition for sophomore year. Move here at 18, intending to get in-state rates, work for a year, then start school at 19. You get in-state rates. That's the distinction and what they mean by "for purposes."

Yorktown Street

William Hurst, if people are working under a false Social Security number, they are subsidizing the rest of us. Their paycheck is reduced every week or two weeks by the deduction for Social Security, but they will never get to collect on it. Instead, their contributions will go into the pot to help you and me when we retire. And you're angry about that??

Identity Theft

Many people also COLLECT under false social security names/numbers. It works both ways. Hope it doesn't happen to you. And by the way, either way, it's identity theft. Hope that doesn't happen to you, either!

William Hurst

No,I am not angry about that Yorktown Street. What I am angry about is that americans are losing their jobs to illegal aliens. Stealing ones identity is a federal crime, punishable by imprisonment. I would like to thank "Identity Theft" for his/her input and also to that breath of fresh air "Citizens". In the land of progressives we stand alone. Is being in this country illegally a crime? Yes, and the violator is subject to deportation. So if laws are being broken and people are subject to deportation and or imprisonment, then what is it you dont understand, or maybe you can help me see the progressive light at the end of the tunnel. Why make laws if they are meant to be broken.

Kate

Well, since we're talking about illegal residents, check this out.

SEATTLE - September, 2006
A federal grand jury has indicted a state Department of Licensing employee, accusing him of selling Washington driver's licenses to more than 150 illegal Brazilian nationals, (all of whome resided in the Boston area) including some who did not pass the required tests.
The U.S. attorney's office in Seattle says: 37-year-old Zagari Shunta Moore (U.S. citizen), of Federal Way, is accused of conspiracy to commit document fraud, along with two other men -- 45-year-old Mauro Martins (Brazilian), of Kirkland, AND
31-year-old Jackson Ronaldo Da Conceicao, of Everett, formerly of Somerville.
Prosecutors say Martins took many of the applicants to a licensing office in Federal Way, where Moore issued the phony licenses for 250 dollars, and then altered computer records.
Da Conceicao is accused of recruiting Brazilians in the Boston area who had 'overstayed' their visas (most, if not all, never had a visa to begin with). They then flew to Seattle to get driver's licenses in Washington state, which does not require a Social Security number or proof that applicants are in the country legally. Moore and Martins have pleaded not guilty.

As of the writing of this article, Da Conceicao had not yet entered his plea. They each face up to 15 years in prison if convicted. Da Conceicao was running the 'operation' for many months, charging as much as $2,000 - $3,000 per license, including the airfare.
(At the time of his arrest Da Conceicao was the owner of (I think it was called Highland Pizza). The shop was definitely on Highland Avenue, maybe between Lowell and Cedar Streets. His wife was also collecting welfare for herself and their 3 children, while she was working as a housecleaner and while he was operating the pizza shop and running his Seattle 'operation'.) They also owned a home in Everett. Both Da Conceicao and his wife entered the U.S., by circumventing the immigration laws, otherwise defined as illegally.

As of either Feburary or March, 2007, Da Conceica is a free man. He had to pay a $22,000 fine, but no deportation - what BS.

Citizens

This is happening more and more often and people have finally started to wake up and speak up. When the progressives have their identity, or social security funds stolen, or get into a car accident with an illegal who has no license and no insurance, perhaps they'll begin to wake up also.

Solh Zendeh

The reality is that we cannot accommodate all the people that want to come to this country without lowering our standard of living. It is ridiculous to suggest otherwise, and it saddens me to see otherwise smart people advocating stupid stupid policies.

However, please keep in mind that by subsidizing American corn manufacturing corporations with tax payer money we *starved* Mexican farmers off their land. Now, because we are diverting so much corn to ethanol for our SUVs and pickups, corn prices have gone way up and poor Mexicans cannot afford corn - which is a staple of their diet.

You were born here - lucky you. You didn't earn it, and god did not pick you to be the special one.

Yorktown Street

Identity theft is indeed a serious issue. People who were born here and speak English are in a better position to commit identity theft than immigrants, however. And to go back to the issue, no one is saying that college students whos parents came from another country are using false ID's to go to college. It's just the opposite. They want to go under their own names, study, and go on to make their own contributions to the community they now call home.

Kate

"People who were born here and speak English are in a better position to commit identity theft than immigrants, however."

There are millions of illegal aliens who are honest (I know, I know - except for the fact that they are here illegally), hardworking people, looking to have a way of life they could never achieve in their homeland.

The non-law abiding illegals learn very quickly how to beat our system.

Grog29

What are these nutjob liberal politicians thinking?
Do they think we don't know who the financial backers of the LOADED study are? They are the BUSINESSES COMMUNITIES! that love for individual taxpayers to pay all the costs associated with illegals while they complain about business taxes! This study is garbage. We just KILLED this idea last year! It's like the hacks and Prop 2 1/2 overrides! As soon as the VOTERS tell them to SCREW, they come back 6 months later! How do they figure how much an illegal alien
costs taxpayers for one of their luxury emergency room visits? How much money does it cost the state taxpayers if they apply for state aid (once the hurdle of instate-tuition is knocked over...and that is THEIR PLAN!)? Believe me, they just want their foot in the door. This would give them LEGITIMACY! They want this to say "Hey Look! We are
legitimized by the politicians and colleges...now we want more benefits". Let's get it straight. ALL of these people are ILLEGAL ALIENS! If they were brought here as little kids on tourist visas and then they become 18 and still stay, they are
ADULT ILLEGAL ALIEN LAWBREAKERS like their parents.
And you can't be "in the process of becoming legal" if you are
"out of status". You can't get legalized if you are in violation of the LAW! These illegals just keep saying "I'm in the process" because they think Americans are suckers for doubletalk. LEAVE!

Kate

"What are these nutjob liberal politicians thinking?"

Not very clearly, I'd say. I'd bet most of them are not as informed about the 'illegal' way of life, here, as they claim. Otherwise, they'd be singing a different tune.

If those politicians that are in the dark would take the time to educate themselves, they'd be shocked. They have no real idea of how far-reaching the illegal alien promblem is. Did y'all see the news about the march yesterday, by aliens/immigrants. Many of them were waving the flag of their homeland; they're not even tyring to look as if they honestly want to become an American - they just want the benefits.

Grog29

The only fair way that these "students" should be allowed to attend Massachusetts state colleges is if they GO BACK to their home countries,
apply for a STUDENT VISA (Brasil is one of the countries where a visa is required) and if approved...pay INTERNATIONAL STUDENT
TUITION rates!

If the legislature has the galll to pass an IN-STATE TUITION FOR ILLEGAL ALIENS bill, I can't wait until a New Hampshire or Rhode Island resident who is payingthe OUT OF STATE tuition rates sues the college for discrimination.

For the poster who called NATIVE BORN AMERICANS and immigrants who FOLLOW THE LAW "gringos"...
87% of Americans are NATIVE. That means they were BORN HERE. They had no control over it. Buy a dictionary. So called American Indian's ancestors came over a land bridge in the Bering Straits from Asia. But if they were BORN HERE...that makes them NATIVES like the rest of the 87%!
Lawbreakers always resort to stupid arguments.

Solh Zendeh

I love how self righteous people get on this subject. You didn't earn it, you lucked out. So sure, go ahead and enforce your privileged position that you didn't earn. But at least have some class about it. Admit that you are being selfish and move on. I've admitted as much - I don't want to give up my high standard of living in the fruitless pursuit of fairness. There are too many people, and too little energy resources on this planet already for any fairness to be achieved in my lifetime.

But at least I don't hide behind "they are so greedy", "they are such law breakers". Give me a break, you just don't want to give to the poor what you were given at birth. I find this carping about how they are taking our "hard earned" dollars totally distasteful and plain pathetic.

Ron Newman

I'm not even convinced that admitting large numbers of immigrants is bad from a selfish point of view. Didn't our country benefit greatly from the large influx of Irish, Italian, Polish, East European Jewish, and other immigrants up to the 1920s? And don't tell me that all of them were "legal" or "documented" by current standards.

Solh Zendeh

Ron, it's true we benefited back then. But think about how much has changed since then.
- Our economy was based on manufacturing then, now it's based on flipping houses and complex financial BS.
- There was huge amounts of oil pouring out of the ground back then, right in our back yards. Now we are way past peak production, and are importing huge amounts of energy from places we really would rather not be.
- Back then we did not already have: interstate highway system, or hoover dam, or 3/4 of Manhattan skyline - we needed illiterate people here to do back breaking work. Now we have all that infrastructure, and maintaining it does not require the level of manual labor it did back then to build it.

I could go on and on. There are too many people on this planet as it is, to think that we can infinitely absorb them is just not correct. If you want to be fair to these people, lets start with not messing with their ability to grow, buy and sell food by subsidizing our agriculture corporations. Then move on to not subsidizing the dictators and terrorists by consuming so much oil. This will involve sacrifice, something that people in this country are clearly not willing to do without some sort of boot in the ass. Hopefully it won't take a oil price super spike to do it, but I'm not very hopeful.

That was then, this is now.

The main difference between then and now is this: In the past we had large amounts of open land to be populated and this is no longer true. We also had less population, so we could absorb more immigrants. This is also no longer true. Also, even as recently as the '50s when my parents came here (legally) they had to have a sponsor, and both they and their sponsor had to agree not to become dependent on the government. We also attempted to bring in educated people who could work at specific occupations, and these people came wanting to stay and to assimilate. Thanks to Ted Kennedy and cohorts, this has all been changed. Many politicians, like Mike Capuano, are beginning to see it realistically. Maybe because Mike still has a home in Somerville and sees the results firsthand. He recently stated that it's a simple formula: Xamount of land x Xamount of people x Xamount of jobs = we can no longer continue to absorb immigrants at anywhere near the current rate. It's the economy, stupid!

Yorktown Street

Didn't I see a large number of people waving the flag of Ireland, oh, about six weeks ago? Does that mean they have no interest in being American?

You tell me

Well, you tell me....
Are they citizens?
Are they here legally?
Do they speak English?
Do they work legally?

Kate

Yorktown - C'mon -- you actually don't understand the difference??

Ron Newman

We have enough recent Irish immigrants in Boston (legal or otherwise) that the Irish Immigration Center was created. Irish immigrants have participated in pro-immigration marches alongside Latinos and other groups.

Solh Zendeh

That was then this is now,

actually, we still have huge (huge!) amounts of undeveloped land in this country. That is really not an issue and won't be for the foreseeable future. The key limiting factor is energy as I said before.

If you do some research on 'peak oil' you will understand what I am talking about when I say that we have a short period of time to get our act together before our quality of life here in America starts to take a long slide.

That is the reason I am against immigration - we don't need more people coming in when things are about to get a lot worse for us. By the way, I am against immigration, full stop. I don't care if it's legal or illegal, we are full up here.

I still object to this incredibly self-righteous tone I hear from many of my fellow anti-immigration folks. It's not about how we Americans deserve something more, or that we earned it and they didn't or anything like that.

Veerrry Interesting.....

Interesting.....another attack on the USA thwarted. This one was being planned as an attack on a military base, hoping to kill American soldiers. And, let's see, who are the 'alleged' perpetrators? Illegal aliens who also happen to be Muslims. When will the people in this country wake up and realize that we must have border security in order to be secure. These are the people who are 'only here to get a job', are 'hardworking people', etc, etc, etc. I'm tired of hearing the lame excuses for these people.

Solh Zendeh

Actually, the real news with this story is that half of them are *citizens of this country*. Look, I am against immigration, but you don't have to vilify the entire population of illegal's to make the argument that they should not be allowed in. That is just an intellectually dishonest argument to make.

We need to stop immigration *and* globalization because both of these involve disbursing the tremendous wealth that has accumulated in this country. This accumulation of wealth is the reason that you and I can live the lives of historically extreme comfort and safety that we do.

Just because we don't want to share doesn't make them evil, but it does make us selfish. I've accepted that, can you?

???

I'm selfish because I dislike having to pay for people who flaunt our laws? I'm selfish because I work for what I have? I'm selfish because my parents played by the rules and came here legally? I'm selfish because I don't like seeing that people who either were invited in or broke in have robbed, killed, plotted, etc., against myself and other citizens?
Perhaps they should stay in their own country and work to make them just as profitable as us. We are profitable becuase we have a government which is not corrupt (OK, you know what I mean!), because we live by the rule of law, and because of hard work. Nothing more. No magic here, just hard work.

Solh Zendeh

No, you are factually incorrect. Our country is "profitable" for none of the reasons you suggest. In fact we have accumulated unprecedented wealth through a combination of luck (we possessed tremendous natural resources in this country, most importantly oil) and careful manipulation of the world economy after World War 2.

But let's just leave that aside. No, I do not say that you are a selfish person, I think that is something people need to determine for themselves. I am saying that I am selfish because I don't want to share the opportunities I was given (I did not earn the "right" to be born here, I got it through pure dumb luck) with others who are very poor. Here's the definition of selfish: "concerned chiefly or only with yourself and your advantage to the exclusion of others". I think that sums up our modern capitalist system pretty well. At least I don't hide behind some self-righteous bunk like "I earned it", or "they are trying to steal from me".

I'm not objecting to denying entry into our country, I'm objection to the vilification of huge groups of people just to justify what some (not me!) might assume is a similar selfishness to my own. World oil supply is peaking *right now* which means that our ability to sustain our way of life will depend on individuals like you and I being honest about our situation to each other and to ourselves. The coming years are going to be harder than you can believe, we need you to keep your eye on the ball and don't blame some poor saps for trying to do better for themselves. Don't let them in, but don't waste time hating them.

Yorktown Street

"You tell me," you're raising a different set of questions than the one I was answering. I was making the point that it's very possible to be proud of, and identify with, more than one country. If the Irish example isn't enough to show that, look at the Jews waving Israeli flags on Israel Independence Day. How is that different from a person waving the flag of El Salvador, or Brazil? Pride is pride.

In fact, though, to respond to your questions: not so long ago, the single biggest group of illegal aliens in the Boston area were Irish. They came to visit or study, but they stayed without permission to work. That changed when the economy in Ireland improved--not because of any change in the law.

Grog29

"The real story here"... is that 3 of the 6 terrorist suspects that were preparing for an attack on our OWN SOLDIERS in OUR OWN COUNTRY were in the country ILLEGALLY!

How many terror cells will be given amnesty in the Kennedy Amnesty for 20 million illegals being brought up by Harry Reid's Democrat Senate next week? Still think it's a good idea Capuano?

Solh Zendeh

Grog, it's not news that people that are not citizens of this country would sneak in for terrorist jihad. That has happened multiple times. The point I was making was that it is very rare that *citizens of this country* would do the same. Now that is something new and not encouraging. My vote is to round up all those soviet-era nuke floating around before these nuts gets their hands on one.

Radams

This particular incident involved 3 illegal aliens as well as 3 'naturalized citizens'. There's at least a slight difference between that and an american born and raised in this country.

Grog29

3 were Illegal aliens.
Still think it's a good idea to aloow 20 million illegals stay and have a "pathway to citizenship"???

2 were green card holders.

1 was a naturalized citizen.

All were let in by the Clintons in 1999 with no background checks.

Grog29

3 were Illegal aliens.
Still think it's a good idea to aloow 20 million illegals stay and have a "pathway to citizenship"???

2 were green card holders.

1 was a naturalized citizen.

All were let in by the Clintons in 1999 with no background checks.

Solh Zendeh

Sorry, meant to respond yesterday. Yes, I was wrong about it being 3 being citizens, I guess it was just the 1. Anyway, it's definitely worth considering tightening up immigration policy because of this threat alone, but honestly, I think you are blowing the whole stealing/evil/terrorist alien threat way out of proportion. The fact is that most of these people are guilty of being poor and desperate enough to break the law to feed their family.

Considering that there are some very real reasons to think that part of the reason they are as desperate as they are is because of the farm and energy policies of my own government, I refuse to vilify them - it's just too hypocritical. However, I still think we need to stop them from coming. I guess I'm just coming to the same conclusion as you from a different perspective that I hope you can at least understand if not agree with.

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